Re: Shutter Island

Kevin wrote:

Thanks for saving us from ourselves, Mike!

Hey, no problem.

"Rugby is great. The players don't wear helmets or padding; they just beat the living daylights out of each other and then go for a beer. I love that."
-Joe Theismann

Re: Shutter Island

I agree with Mike. Perhaps my earlier ramble was too long to make that clear. It's a meh movie filled with plot holes. Entertaining, but hardly great.

I like tacos!

Thumbs up

Re: Shutter Island

Wow. This thread really took off.

I wanted to believe in Theory #2 the whole way through. I was thinking "wow, this ending is gonna be awesome."

But it wasn't I think it was very clear that he was delusional. And all of the 'holes' in Theory #1 are explained by the fact that he was DELUSIONAL. And he gets violent at the drop of a hat.

There are a lot of weird issues if you go back and watch. When Leo interviews the other patients, they are clearly feeding lines and confused about why they are talking to him. At one point a glass disappears from a woman's hand.

And for me, the look of disappointment on Kingsley's face at the end was genuine.

"How much cheese is too much cheese? "

Thumbs up

Re: Shutter Island

Actium wrote:

Wow. This thread really took off.

I wanted to believe in Theory #2 the whole way through. I was thinking "wow, this ending is gonna be awesome."

But it wasn't I think it was very clear that he was delusional. And all of the 'holes' in Theory #1 are explained by the fact that he was DELUSIONAL. And he gets violent at the drop of a hat.

There are a lot of weird issues if you go back and watch. When Leo interviews the other patients, they are clearly feeding lines and confused about why they are talking to him. At one point a glass disappears from a woman's hand.

And for me, the look of disappointment on Kingsley's face at the end was genuine.

I'm not sure you understand the holes.  He can be delusional, but you can't program when he completely loses his memory.  You can't say "ok, well, he's about to lose his memory, so put him on the boat."  It doesn't work that way.  Just as you can't predict the weather, you certainly can't predict a patient's amnesia.

Also, if he is delusional, and so very very dangerous, then how in the hell would allow him free reign of the island?  The logic just falls in on itself.

Actium wrote:

When Leo interviews the other patients, they are clearly feeding lines and confused about why they are talking to him. At one point a glass disappears from a woman's hand.

The patients were trained to feed him lines.  This applies to both theories.  As for the disappearing glass, I'm not sure that proves anything.  I mean, Goodfellas has a telephone that disappears about 50 times.

Re: Shutter Island

zeigerthetiger wrote:

I agree with Mike. Perhaps my earlier ramble was too long to make that clear. It's a meh movie filled with plot holes. Entertaining, but hardly great.

Name one plot hole with the he was drugged theory.

Re: Shutter Island

Actium wrote:

And for me, the look of disappointment on Kingsley's face at the end was genuine.

That's Sir Ben. He brings his A game even when he's cashing in on his name in a crap movie like "Species".

By now, everyone's seen Ghandi and Sexy Beast. If you haven't seen him in House of Sand and Fog and You Kill Me, you should!

You had me at Helu.  Helu Who?

Thumbs up

Re: Shutter Island

xlledx wrote:
zeigerthetiger wrote:

I agree with Mike. Perhaps my earlier ramble was too long to make that clear. It's a meh movie filled with plot holes. Entertaining, but hardly great.

Name one plot hole with the he was drugged theory.

Drugs wear off, that's one. Want two? How about three? Hell, ask for five, I'm sure I can make some sheeznaz up. It's not too hard to do, as you have shown us. Don't think you're the only one that can go on a tangent.

I like tacos!

Thumbs up

Re: Shutter Island

zeigerthetiger wrote:
xlledx wrote:
zeigerthetiger wrote:

I agree with Mike. Perhaps my earlier ramble was too long to make that clear. It's a meh movie filled with plot holes. Entertaining, but hardly great.

Name one plot hole with the he was drugged theory.

Drugs wear off, that's one. Want two? How about three? Hell, ask for five, I'm sure I can make some sheeznaz up. It's not too hard to do, as you have shown us. Don't think you're the only one that can go on a tangent.

LSD lasts for 12 hours.  It's possible a weaponized version, or another hallucinogen, could be made to last longer.  Also, he's drugged consistently throughout the movie. 

More plz.

Edit: btw psychedelics alter the brain's chemistry and can cause permanent changes, including vegetation and insanity.

Re: Shutter Island

xlledx wrote:
zeigerthetiger wrote:
xlledx wrote:

Name one plot hole with the he was drugged theory.

Drugs wear off, that's one. Want two? How about three? Hell, ask for five, I'm sure I can make some sheeznaz up. It's not too hard to do, as you have shown us. Don't think you're the only one that can go on a tangent.

LSD lasts for 12 hours.  It's possible a weaponized version, or another hallucinogen, could be made to last longer.  Also, he's drugged consistently throughout the movie. 

More plz.

Edit: btw psychedelics alter the brain's chemistry and can cause permanent changes, including vegetation and insanity.

Modern day LSD does not last that long, unless you're counting the lingering effects. Or, unless he was pumped with high quantity in liquid or injection form. Perhaps the stuff in the 60s, which was more potent, would last that long without having to overdose him with it.

Weaponized version? It's not even plausible that they would need to go to such an extent to create it just to use on him.

As for the brain's chemistry argument, sure it can, but unless someone is swallowing a whole sheet of that stuff, it's not likely to have a prolonged affect as it once did when that sheeznaz was more potent. Acid these days last more like 6-8 hours.

And, giving him more and more throughout? Well, if this were true, the absence of any kind of evidence is a plot hole in itself. Who writes a movie with an explanation so far on the other end of obvious? Only a moron, that's who.

Offer plot holes...

1. After heavy drugs, your ass gets tired. Your body and mind can only take so much. Leo never got tired.
2. The "making you crazy" affects of drugs is not constant. It's more of a roller coaster. One minute you see one thing, another a different thing, than you're kind of normal, than a little crazy, than laughing, then who knows what. Leo's story was too clean, albeit crazy, to be caused by drugs.
3. The flashbacks show that some of these people were playing along. If you're going to drug him, why not do it right and knock him out and drop the whole hired guns to play along bit. That's just dumb.
4. If they keep pumping him with drugs, he's going to OD. If they want him dead, just kill the bastard. If they don't, and they are half witted, than they would not drug him over and over again. Not those kind of drugs at least. Medication, that's one thing. But drugs to make him hallucinate? Come on.
5. You thought of it and you're obviously still feeling the side effects from your hippie years.

I like tacos!

Thumbs up

Re: Shutter Island

He was supposed to be on acid? That's gotta be the worst trip ever in the history of bad trips. At most Acid can probably go for about 12 hours, I've heard 14 from some friends. But right after you sleep like a mofo and the weird thing is that you don't dream. After words I crashed for 9 hours, woke up and felt like only 10 minutes had passed, and actually felt like I slept for 10 minutes. Plus your body aches and there's no chance he would even be able to function after his second trip. He'd be so flipped out and spent.

But then again, it could be "weaponized" version. Hey I watch a lot of movies that I know you have to really bend reality to make the story work, and I'm cool with that. Even if it's not plausible it was still mildly entertaining. Just don't think it's all that.

"Rugby is great. The players don't wear helmets or padding; they just beat the living daylights out of each other and then go for a beer. I love that."
-Joe Theismann

Re: Shutter Island

zeigerthetiger wrote:

Modern day LSD does not last that long, unless you're counting the lingering effects. Or, unless he was pumped with high quantity in liquid or injection form. Perhaps the stuff in the 60s, which was more potent, would last that long without having to overdose him with it.

Sweet!  I got a live one here!  I'm not sure why you're differentiating between "modern day LSD" and "60's LSD."  It's all just made in a lab, so the potency or what it's laced with is highly objectionable.  I'm getting the 12 hours from my own experience. 

zeigerthetiger wrote:

Weaponized version? It's not even plausible that they would need to go to such an extent to create it just to use on him.

Who says they created it just to use on him?  They're a secret government installation that performs human testing.  They got it on hand.

zeigerthetiger wrote:

As for the brain's chemistry argument, sure it can, but unless someone is swallowing a whole sheet of that stuff, it's not likely to have a prolonged affect as it once did when that sheeznaz was more potent. Acid these days last more like 6-8 hours.

I'm not sure why you keep refering to modern day acid.  Even if you were right, and modern day acid was remarkably different, your point would still be mute.  The movie takes place in the 1950's.

zeigerthetiger wrote:

And, giving him more and more throughout? Well, if this were true, the absence of any kind of evidence is a plot hole in itself. Who writes a movie with an explanation so far on the other end of obvious? Only a moron, that's who.

In the cave, the real Rachael tells him its in the water, and the food, and even in the cigarettes.  And most definitely in the pills he took.  The movie doesn't go into the specifics of the drug.  I'm just using acid as an example to prove two points:

1.  There's a historical precedent for single blind human testing.

2.  It's effects last a long time, and they aren't likely to wear off before he drinks or eats again.

zeigerthetiger wrote:

Offer plot holes...

1. After heavy drugs, your ass gets tired. Your body and mind can only take so much. Leo never got tired.

Leo does get tired.  And as a soldier he's trained to march on.  Note: being tired does decrease his mental fortitude, and makes him more vulnerable. 

zeigerthetiger wrote:

2. The "making you crazy" affects of drugs is not constant. It's more of a roller coaster. One minute you see one thing, another a different thing, than you're kind of normal, than a little crazy, than laughing, then who knows what. Leo's story was too clean, albeit crazy, to be caused by drugs.

I'm pretty sure Leo was experiencing a roller coast ride like you describe.  That's my opinion anyway.  It's impossible to actually capture the feeling of a trip in a book or movie, but they did a pretty good job.


zeigerthetiger wrote:

3. The flashbacks show that some of these people were playing along. If you're going to drug him, why not do it right and knock him out and drop the whole hired guns to play along bit. That's just dumb.

Because they specialize in mind control.  Just knocking him out doesn't serve much of a purpose.  They may as well just blow his brains out.

zeigerthetiger wrote:

4. If they keep pumping him with drugs, he's going to OD. If they want him dead, just kill the bastard. If they don't, and they are half witted, than they would not drug him over and over again. Not those kind of drugs at least. Medication, that's one thing. But drugs to make him hallucinate? Come on.

You can't die from hallucinogens.  You can turn into a vegetable, or go insane, but it's not gonna kill you like heroin. 

zeigerthetiger wrote:

5. You thought of it and you're obviously still feeling the side effects from your hippie years.

I do suffer some side effects of taking LSD.  Short term memory loss.  Certain aural abnormalities, ie some times Ill swap letters or words around:

"The desk are on the keys."

Very rare, but I contribute it to the LSD.

Or Ill kinda brain fart in the middle of a sentence:

"Ask not what your country can do for you, ask...ask...damn."

But it does offer some advantages (wont get into, I dont wanna encourage some of the younger forum users **cough**hardy**couch**).

Course, one advantage I can share, is it will help you win an argument about hallucinogens with someone who's never taken them.

Re: Shutter Island

Baltimore Mike wrote:

He was supposed to be on acid? That's gotta be the worst trip ever in the history of bad trips. At most Acid can probably go for about 12 hours, I've heard 14 from some friends. But right after you sleep like a mofo and the weird thing is that you don't dream. After words I crashed for 9 hours, woke up and felt like only 10 minutes had passed, and actually felt like I slept for 10 minutes. Plus your body aches and there's no chance he would even be able to function after his second trip. He'd be so flipped out and spent.

But then again, it could be "weaponized" version. Hey I watch a lot of movies that I know you have to really bend reality to make the story work, and I'm cool with that. Even if it's not plausible it was still mildly entertaining. Just don't think it's all that.

The movie really doesnt get into what drug he's on. Could be a combination.  The movie doesnt really give you any concrete evidence for either theory (thus this thread).

I just used LSD as an example because

1.  There's a historical precedent for the government (CIA) testing LSD on government employees, civilians, and soldiers.

2.  The effects wouldn't just wear off right away.

But going back to what drug is in the movie.  I have no idea.  The author could have just made one up.  But a made up mind-control hallucinogen is a smaller stretch to me then "they let this dangerous psycho just walk around the island for 2 days."

Re: Shutter Island

xlledx wrote:

Even if you were right, and modern day acid was remarkably different, your point would still be mute.  The movie takes place in the 1950's.

You had me until here, when I had to LOL about "mute".

xlledx wrote:

I do suffer some side effects of taking LSD.  Short term memory loss.  Certain aural abnormalities, ie some times Ill swap letters or words around...

The worst one I had was about 10 years ago.  I was driving, and my entire field of vision spun 90 degrees to the right.  A quick blink and a head shake snapped it back to normal.  Rough 4 or 5 seconds.

Don't do drugs, kids.

“The key is not the will to win. Everybody has that. It is the will to prepare to win that is important.”
– Bobby Knight

Twitter: @tffg and @kevinmoore_tffg

Re: Shutter Island

xlledx, you fight a good fight, I will give you that. But using and knowing about drugs, or hallucinogenics are two different things. And, it's a bit presumptuous to think just because one does not flat out state it, one has not experienced it.

Acid, typically, is taken in two common forms. One is in a pill, referred to as mescaline. This version is much less potent and lasts 4-5 hours, sometimes slightly less or more. The more common version comes on a little tab of paper. This is the more potent version. The paper, obviously, is just that; paper. What makes it acid is a drop of acid is placed on it. This is what causes you to trip balls. Back in the 60s, they understood less about it and put larger quantities of acid on the paper. One explanation why so many hippies completely lost it on acid, and you hardly hear about such cases these days. Due to advanced knowledge, and making more money off of less, the acid these days is less potent. But, then there is liquid acid, a less common form. Now, liquid acid tends to be more pure, but it's not the liquid itself that determines the potency, but the chemicals, what some call mics, that determines how strong it is. And, this too is not made as strong as it once was. Can it be made stronger? Sure it can. But unless there is a specific reason, it's not likely.

I give you credit on declaring that the movie takes place in the 50s. But that argument is probably as poor as my argument about it being stronger back then. If the government wanted to they can whip up a stronger batch even now. So yeah, you got me there. It could be done.

Most of our other arguments are subjective, but do you really believe that you cannot die from hallucinogens? That's far from the truth. Unlike some harder drugs, it doesn't happen as often and you don't hear about it as much, but you absolutely can die from them.

There is another point worth addressing here. The idea that hallucinogens actually make you hallucinate to the extent often portrayed in the media is far fetched. They alone would not cause Leo to concoct an elaborate and untrue reality. Hallucinogens are more likely to affect your perception of reality, such as seeing things differently, than it is to create something that is not there. So, you might look in the mirror and think your face is melting, but you're not likely to think you're in Disney World riding through It's a Small World.

I'm sorry to hear you suffer, but no need to make us all suffer too. smile

I like tacos!

Thumbs up

Re: Shutter Island

Kevin- I'm putting you on moot.

Zeiger- You bring up a good point about hallucinogens. But!  He doesn't ever get transported to another place.  He just sees people that aren't there.  I dont think that's too far fetched.  And even if the movie doesn't portray drugs 100% realistically, that doesn't mean they aren't portraying drugs.  No film ever really gets drugs right.  I can forgive that.

What I can't forgive is the goofy "he's insane" premise.  I can't forgive a movie where the whole time they let a psychopath just walk around wherever the hell he wanted.

In the history of mankind secret government projects have drugged people.  I doubt that a mental institution has ever set up a Disney Land for their most dangerous patient to walk through.

Re: Shutter Island

Here are a few experts from a professor that knows his stuff which makes sense:

"In the lighthouse, Dr. Cawley tells Andrew that he is seeing things and feeling body tremors because of “withdraw.” No, the cigarettes and pills Teddy takes throughout the movie are not meant to drug him – in fact it’s the opposite. Cawley and Sheehan take Andrew off his meds for the role play experiment, in order to help him break through to reality. As the film goes on, Teddy begins to have more vivid hallucinations while he’s awake – his meds were meant to suppress that type of psychosis, not inspire it. Going off the meds is what makes him go so nuts later in the film."

"Fire is a symbol of Andrew/Teddy’s insanity in the movie. If you watch closely, every time Teddy is around fire – the matches he lights in Ward C, the fire in the cave with “Dr. Solando” and when he blows up Dr. Cawley’s car near the end – he suffers some sort of hallucination. Fire is the symbol of Andrew’s fantasy world, while water (the opposite of fire) is the symbol of the reality of what happened to him. His wife drowns his children in water and it is water which makes Andrew so upset/uneasy/sick throughout the film. So that cave scene with “Dr. Solando?” Yeah, she isn’t real – and therefore her whole spiel about Shutter Island being a secret government mind control lab isn’t real either."

"Watch the guards throughout the film. They get extremely edgy whenever “Teddy” is around, and clutch their guns a little tighter. This is especially true at the beginning when “The Marshals” come to the island. It’s because the guards know Teddy is a lunatic and they’re not exactly thrilled about the role play experiment. It’s also why they are less than enthused about looking for a Rachel Solando who doesn’t exist down by the ocean rocks."

"Pay attention to the staff interview scene. When Teddy and Chuck interview the nurses and orderlies it’s easy to see just how ridiculous the staff finds the interview. One nurse says something about how ‘far from normal’ their jobs are – she’s making an ironic joke because she’s talking to a lunatic dressed as a cop. In that scene, the staff are also not too enthused about the role play, and Dr. Sheehan / Chuck pushes them to answer Teddy’s questions. You’ll see what I mean."

"In the end, Shutter Island is a pretty clear-cut mystery. I realize that boiling it down to “Teddy is crazy” might not be as fun as some of the conspiracy theories out there, but the evidence is all over the film."

Sorry, xlledx, he is crazy and it's meh film.

I like tacos!

Thumbs up

Re: Shutter Island

The more I read xlledx's theories, the gayer I feel...

Bye-bye, Li'l Sebastian

Re: Shutter Island

zeigerthetiger wrote:

Here are a few experts from a professor that knows his stuff which makes sense:

"In the lighthouse, Dr. Cawley tells Andrew that he is seeing things and feeling body tremors because of “withdraw.” No, the cigarettes and pills Teddy takes throughout the movie are not meant to drug him – in fact it’s the opposite. Cawley and Sheehan take Andrew off his meds for the role play experiment, in order to help him break through to reality. As the film goes on, Teddy begins to have more vivid hallucinations while he’s awake – his meds were meant to suppress that type of psychosis, not inspire it. Going off the meds is what makes him go so nuts later in the film."

I actually read this article the night i watched the movie.  I know is the what Dr Cawley tells him.  I have nothing to contradict this, but the Dr telling Leo this doesnt prove anything.  This just Cawley's explanation.

zeigerthetiger wrote:

"Fire is a symbol of Andrew/Teddy’s insanity in the movie. If you watch closely, every time Teddy is around fire – the matches he lights in Ward C, the fire in the cave with “Dr. Solando” and when he blows up Dr. Cawley’s car near the end – he suffers some sort of hallucination. Fire is the symbol of Andrew’s fantasy world, while water (the opposite of fire) is the symbol of the reality of what happened to him. His wife drowns his children in water and it is water which makes Andrew so upset/uneasy/sick throughout the film. So that cave scene with “Dr. Solando?” Yeah, she isn’t real – and therefore her whole spiel about Shutter Island being a secret government mind control lab isn’t real either."

Coffee-house bullsh1t.

zeigerthetiger wrote:

"Watch the guards throughout the film. They get extremely edgy whenever “Teddy” is around, and clutch their guns a little tighter. This is especially true at the beginning when “The Marshals” come to the island. It’s because the guards know Teddy is a lunatic and they’re not exactly thrilled about the role play experiment. It’s also why they are less than enthused about looking for a Rachel Solando who doesn’t exist down by the ocean rocks."

Course they clutch their guns.  He's a WW2 vet and US Marshall and theyre just a bunch of rent a cops.  And it's especially true when he first comes to the island, thats cuz he had a loaded gun on him.  See zeiger. All of this can exist in both scenarios.

zeigerthetiger wrote:

"Pay attention to the staff interview scene. When Teddy and Chuck interview the nurses and orderlies it’s easy to see just how ridiculous the staff finds the interview. One nurse says something about how ‘far from normal’ their jobs are – she’s making an ironic joke because she’s talking to a lunatic dressed as a cop. In that scene, the staff are also not too enthused about the role play, and Dr. Sheehan / Chuck pushes them to answer Teddy’s questions. You’ll see what I mean."

How happy should the staff be that theyre being investigated?  Nothing good can come from any answers they give. 

zeigerthetiger wrote:

"In the end, Shutter Island is a pretty clear-cut mystery. I realize that boiling it down to “Teddy is crazy” might not be as fun as some of the conspiracy theories out there, but the evidence is all over the film."

Sorry, xlledx, he is crazy and it's meh film.

None of the evidence in the film is concrete. Its just indications that can exist unilaterally in both theories.  Where are the photographs of Leo on the island?  Where are tape recordings?  If he keeps relapsing then why not have him write a note to himself?

Re: Shutter Island

Can someone start a thread about another movie? smile

Though this is entertaining. There's probably been more talk about this movie on this thread, then anywhere else in the movie community.

To Xlledex - As for the gov't testing of LSD back in the day. From what I read, and saw on TV and stuff, was that when LSD first came out (60's) the gov't was scared of it's side affects and what the communists can do with it. Basically they were testing it on gov't employees and military officers to see if given large amounts of acid would they talk and give up secrets. Talk about an gov't experiment worth taking part in. So it's not like the US was trying to make weaponized version of it, they were just testing it's affects on people since it was a new drug and it was the height of the cold war.

As for Zeiger ... dude I'm totally with you on the movie being meh, and unbelievable, but you kinda have to stretch your mind a bit. Of course the whole premise won't make sense, but then again, I love the show Fringe and none of that makes sense. So trying to debunk all of the totally implausible points in this movie is "mute"(xlledex word) point. Some people like this movie, and to each their own.

I just don't think it is as deep as people are making it out to be. I honestly think that Fight Club can delve deeper into the human psyche than this movie. But still I thought it was entertaining.

"Rugby is great. The players don't wear helmets or padding; they just beat the living daylights out of each other and then go for a beer. I love that."
-Joe Theismann

Re: Shutter Island

Wow, this escalated quickly.

It is a fair wind that blew men to the ale.

Re: Shutter Island

I used to like this movie, in an entertaining way.

I'll never be able to watch it again.

"I've come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass... And I'm all out of bubblegum."

RIP Roddy

Thumbs up

Re: Shutter Island

Well.  I've made all my points, and said everything (and more) than I wanted to say.  For those wondering, the book is good, but not as good as the movie.  I was expecting a lot of inner monologue from Leo's charactor, but it turns out pretty much every thought the character has in the book was conveyed in the movie thru good acting and direction.

Re: Shutter Island

Baltimore Mike wrote:

I honestly think that Fight Club can delve deeper into the human psyche than this movie.

Now, there is a fantastic movie!

I like tacos!

Thumbs up

Re: Shutter Island

zeigerthetiger wrote:
Baltimore Mike wrote:

I honestly think that Fight Club can delve deeper into the human psyche than this movie.

Now, there is a fantastic movie!

http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/184/fightclubcigaretteburn.gif

I'm all up in your Twitters!!1!

"I don't play video games...that's cool...I get laid instead..." -Liz Loza
"It was a fine looking penis..." -MojoX

Thumbs up

Re: Shutter Island

please don't go and ruin Fight Club for me.

It is a fair wind that blew men to the ale.